Right of Reply?
I know a number of people have been fascinated by the content of the Armybarmy blog and would periodically like to enter into public dialogue about it. Here's your opportunity to do so...
Mahan fell out of use, probably because it was found he was plain wrong. I guess we have enough issues with the idea of a supposed second blessing without adding a third. Most of this happens because of a misunderstanding of biblical terminology and the incompetent use of terminology on the other. Some half decent exegesis of texts would set thing on a better foundation. This also includes second blessing stuff as well.
"Save to Save" - I belive this used to be "Saved to Serve". The change is interesting if this is the case as the new idea suggests, then we are capable of 'saving' a soul, and it places the salvation of souls squarely on our shoulders. ie we are accountable as to who gets into heaven or not. Can't find any scripture that makes such an assertion. I think Booth as well as Armybarmy might be getting it wrong here.
It would seem our friend does read this site. “Saved to save” is not the primary definition of what we are on about. A close look at the new testament shows that the defining term of the church and its task is ‘marturia’ (witness) over ‘kerygma’ (preaching) as the indispensable core of the christian message. A search show that the number of occurrences of the use of ‘marturia’ in the New Testament outnumbers ‘kerygma’ 6 to 1. ‘Marturia’ serves as an overarching term drawing together proclamation (kerygma), community (koinonia) and service (diakonia).” It can be argued this defines the New Testament Spirit-enabled witness for which the church is called and sent. If all of this is true, we in the ministry have the basis upon which to change the way we talk about, teach and guide what has been called evangelism in our churches. We must shift from evangelism to witness, from packaged truths to incarnational witness, from cognitive techniques to interpersonal engagement, from the attractional church of individual consumers, to missional communities of discipleship and witness. The life of the church is its witness. The witness of the church is its life. The question of authentic witness is the question of authentic community.
To the last anon... some people have the ability to express themselves so well. Thankyou for putting into words something that I have known and believed intuitively. I used to just say 'relationships' - 'love' - but you've broadened and clarified this so well. Thankyou for using your ability to help as we live together in the Kingdom come days. REC
Going by Wednesday's post these post are being read. I didn't think our replys were all that emotional, rather reasoned I though. Yet the reply looks somewhat testy about it. 'Saved to serve' is now a 'mistake', an interesting take on the matter. It might be useful if he gave us some information as what he thinks the orginal slogan was. Personally I've only known 'saved to serve' with 'saved to save' being something of a recent inovation. We are 'saved to serve' - to serve God and to serve our neighbour. Evangelism is not merely turning our neighbour in an object, ie a soul, that is to be saved/converted. I wonder howmany souls he has 'saved' and what divine attributes he has that enabled him to save those souls. If we say we can save souls then the logical conclusion is we have divine attributes that enable us to that. Johno
Rick Joyner heads Morningstar Ministries. Many supporters of today's controversial ‘Renewal and revival’ ,and obviously Stephen, consider him to be a "prophet" and/or "apostle". Heres are a couple of quotes “...many Protestant and Reformed theologies not only hinder, but actually prohibit, Christians from knowing God’s voice. These theologies can be traced to the extreme interpretation of the prime Reformation motto sola scriptura, which means ‘Scripture alone.’” Prophetic Vision for the 21st Century, op. cit., pg. 80. “There is a tendency to continue relating to Him as ‘the MAN from Galilee.’ Jesus is not a man. He was and is Spirit. He took the form of a servant and became a man for a brief time.” There Were Two Trees in the Garden, Looks like Joyner is teaching Gnosticism/Docetism a view which denies Christ’s true humanity by saying that Christ only appeared to have a physical body. Surely no true prophet of God would deny the human nature of Christ or that Jesus is in a resurrected glorified body. Paul reminds us in 1 Timothy 2:5, “There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” How can Joyner say, “Jesus is not a man”? If we accept Prophet Joyner, then we have eroded the doctrinal truths that separate Christianity from the cults.
Wes & Stacey Campbell on the board of reference for the War College? Aren't they also on the lunatic fringe of Christianity alongside the likes of Rick Joyner?
Yes being holy is important but we do need some guiding principles when it comes to shaping our search. Going back to William Booth or Samuel Brengle or even Wesley and then arguing from the tradition may be helpful but it is not going far enough. We have to go back to the Bible and see whether our pet proof-texts can bear the interpretation we have given them, when they are subjected to rigorous exegetical analysis. There may also be other texts that have been overlooked and which demand attention. So a fresh Biblical theology of holiness is called for. One cannot check out the proof-texts without knowing which texts have been favoured by which Christian groups. Hopefully there are valuable insights to be gleaned from the whole people of God - Jewish, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Reformed and charismatic, and not just our own tradition. Within our own tradition there have been significant variations in emphasis between Brengle, Coutts and Yuill. A weakness of many renewal movements within Christianity, such as ours has been, is that they start life as an experience looking for a theological justification. However, since our experiences of God are as varied as our fingerprints, it is dangerous to make experience the touchstone for doctrine. Our doctrine of the Christian life in general and the sanctified life in particular must flow from, and be coherent with, the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith. Therefore, a fresh dogmatic or systematic theology of holiness is also required, which grounds everything in the holiness of the Holy Trinity, the holiness of the Incarnate Christ, the completeness of his atoning sacrifice for sin, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in mediating the benefits of Jesus' death and resurrection, and so on. We can get the doctrine word-perfect, but if the power of the Holy Spirit is not upon us individually and collectively, we are beating the air. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement. It is the Holy Spirit who draws people to Jesus. It is the Holy Spirit who makes people holy by cleansing and filling them. Christian Spirituality is a burgeoning discipline which seeks to draw from many Christian traditions for practices which will strengthen Christians individually and corporately in their attempt to live holy lives. We must surely realise that if Saint Paul, Martin Luther, John Wesley or William Booth were alive today, in many respects they would act and teach quite differently from how they did in previous generations. The gospel may not change but cultures do, and every generation of Christians must communicate in culturally-relevant ways to its contemporaries. We therefore also need to consider the Pastoral and Social Implications of Christian Holiness. Paladin
Had a read of Stephens article in the August JAC titled Demonised Salvos? The article consists of nothing more that quotaes taken from who knows where. This means that quotes are taken out of context and are then used to say whatever Stephen wants them to say. It seems that sin is reduced to demon possession and that sanctification is the casting out of demons. This is pretty poor theology and even worse writing. Johno
Mahan fell out of use, probably because it was found he was plain wrong. I guess we have enough issues with the idea of a supposed second blessing without adding a third. Most of this happens because of a misunderstanding of biblical terminology and the incompetent use of terminology on the other. Some half decent exegesis of texts would set thing on a better foundation. This also includes second blessing stuff as well.
ReplyDelete"Save to Save" - I belive this used to be "Saved to Serve". The change is interesting if this is the case as the new idea suggests, then we are capable of 'saving' a soul, and it places the salvation of souls squarely on our shoulders. ie we are accountable as to who gets into heaven or not. Can't find any scripture that makes such an assertion. I think Booth as well as Armybarmy might be getting it wrong here.
ReplyDeleteIt would seem our friend does read this site. “Saved to save” is not the primary definition of what we are on about. A close look at the new testament shows that the defining term of the church and its task is ‘marturia’ (witness) over ‘kerygma’ (preaching) as the indispensable core of the christian message. A search show that the number of occurrences of the use of ‘marturia’ in the New Testament outnumbers ‘kerygma’ 6 to 1. ‘Marturia’ serves as an overarching term drawing together proclamation (kerygma), community (koinonia) and service (diakonia).” It can be argued this defines the New Testament Spirit-enabled witness for which the church is called and sent. If all of this is true, we in the ministry have the basis upon which to change the way we talk about, teach and guide what has been called evangelism in our churches. We must shift from evangelism to witness, from packaged truths to incarnational witness, from cognitive techniques to interpersonal engagement, from the attractional church of individual consumers, to missional communities of discipleship and witness. The life of the church is its witness. The witness of the church is its life. The question of authentic witness is the question of authentic community.
ReplyDeleteTo the last anon... some people have the ability to express themselves so well. Thankyou for putting into words something that I have known and believed intuitively. I used to just say 'relationships' - 'love' - but you've broadened and clarified this so well. Thankyou for using your ability to help as we live together in the Kingdom come days.
ReplyDeleteREC
Going by Wednesday's post these post are being read. I didn't think our replys were all that emotional, rather reasoned I though. Yet the reply looks somewhat testy about it. 'Saved to serve' is now a 'mistake', an interesting take on the matter. It might be useful if he gave us some information as what he thinks the orginal slogan was. Personally I've only known 'saved to serve' with 'saved to save' being something of a recent inovation. We are 'saved to serve' - to serve God and to serve our neighbour. Evangelism is not merely turning our neighbour in an object, ie a soul, that is to be saved/converted. I wonder howmany souls he has 'saved' and what divine attributes he has that enabled him to save those souls. If we say we can save souls then the logical conclusion is we have divine attributes that enable us to that. Johno
ReplyDeleteRick Joyner heads Morningstar Ministries. Many supporters of today's controversial ‘Renewal and revival’ ,and obviously Stephen, consider him to be a "prophet" and/or "apostle". Heres are a couple of quotes
ReplyDelete“...many Protestant and Reformed theologies not only hinder, but actually prohibit, Christians from knowing God’s voice. These theologies can be traced to the extreme interpretation of the prime Reformation motto sola scriptura, which means ‘Scripture alone.’” Prophetic Vision for the 21st Century, op. cit., pg. 80.
“There is a tendency to continue relating to Him as ‘the MAN from Galilee.’ Jesus is not a man. He was and is Spirit. He took the form of a servant and became a man for a brief time.” There Were Two Trees in the Garden,
Looks like Joyner is teaching Gnosticism/Docetism a view which denies Christ’s true humanity by saying that Christ only appeared to have a physical body.
Surely no true prophet of God would deny the human nature of Christ or that Jesus is in a resurrected glorified body. Paul reminds us in 1 Timothy 2:5, “There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” How can Joyner say, “Jesus is not a man”? If we accept Prophet Joyner, then we have eroded the doctrinal truths that separate Christianity from the cults.
Wes & Stacey Campbell on the board of reference for the War College? Aren't they also on the lunatic fringe of Christianity alongside the likes of Rick Joyner?
ReplyDeleteYes being holy is important but we do need some guiding principles when it comes to shaping our search. Going back to William Booth or Samuel Brengle or even Wesley and then arguing from the tradition may be helpful but it is not going far enough. We have to go back to the Bible and see whether our pet proof-texts can bear the interpretation we have given them, when they are subjected to rigorous exegetical analysis. There may also be other texts that have been overlooked and which demand attention. So a fresh Biblical theology of holiness is called for.
ReplyDeleteOne cannot check out the proof-texts without knowing which texts have been favoured by which Christian groups. Hopefully there are valuable insights to be gleaned from the whole people of God - Jewish, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Reformed and charismatic, and not just our own tradition. Within our own tradition there have been significant variations in emphasis between Brengle, Coutts and Yuill.
A weakness of many renewal movements within Christianity, such as ours has been, is that they start life as an experience looking for a theological justification. However, since our experiences of God are as varied as our fingerprints, it is dangerous to make experience the touchstone for doctrine. Our doctrine of the Christian life in general and the sanctified life in particular must flow from, and be coherent with, the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith. Therefore, a fresh dogmatic or systematic theology of holiness is also required, which grounds everything in the holiness of the Holy Trinity, the holiness of the Incarnate Christ, the completeness of his atoning sacrifice for sin, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in mediating the benefits of Jesus' death and resurrection, and so on. We can get the doctrine word-perfect, but if the power of the Holy Spirit is not upon us individually and collectively, we are beating the air. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement. It is the Holy Spirit who draws people to Jesus. It is the Holy Spirit who makes people holy by cleansing and filling them. Christian Spirituality is a burgeoning discipline which seeks to draw from many Christian traditions for practices which will strengthen Christians individually and corporately in their attempt to live holy lives. We must surely realise that if Saint Paul, Martin Luther, John Wesley or William Booth were alive today, in many respects they would act and teach quite differently from how they did in previous generations. The gospel may not change but cultures do, and every generation of Christians must communicate in culturally-relevant ways to its contemporaries. We therefore also need to consider the Pastoral and Social Implications of Christian Holiness. Paladin
The eight points are agreed to, but he last four being what distinguishes us from other evangelicals is a load of arrogant twat. GBH
ReplyDeleteHad a read of Stephens article in the August JAC titled Demonised Salvos? The article consists of nothing more that quotaes taken from who knows where. This means that quotes are taken out of context and are then used to say whatever Stephen wants them to say. It seems that sin is reduced to demon possession and that sanctification is the casting out of demons. This is pretty poor theology and even worse writing. Johno
ReplyDelete