Right of Reply?
I know a number of people have been fascinated by the content of the Armybarmy blog and would periodically like to enter into public dialogue about it. Here's your opportunity to do so...
Just who is this great salvo woman who occassionally had to kick a demon out of her life? It would be interesting to know and maybe we can get her to join this conversation. What is this throne od dodgy doctrine he is talking about? Certainly shows a strange approach to the subject - then again, are we surprised? Paladin
25/6 The throne of dodgy doctrine? Hmm, could that have anything to do with making distinctions between 'oppression' and 'possession'? Where do I find that explained in the Bible? Seriously, does anyone read this 'kick out demons' stuff and not think it's crazy? I take that back, because unfortunately I know people do and that's what really worries me. Any organisation is likely to have these elements on its fringe, but this is the head of our Training College!
A real issue is the anadotal stories of alleged miracles, demon kicking etc.As we know the more a story is repeated the more likely the facts have been altered. To ascribe an experience to a demon(s) cannot be easily determined. In some cases the source of an experience is overcharged emotion. In some cases it may be demonic interference. However, a safe rule is that demonic agency should never be hastily jumped to, especially when human agency can adequately explain what has happened. The problem with Armybarmy is the repeating of unverified and unverifiable accounts/stories. When analyzing what is being said on Armybarmy we need to ask: can he prove his claims by sufficient evidence? Is he capable of discerning the truthfulness of the event being spoken about? Is the event spoken of possible? Is he trustworthy? By asking such questions is not evidence of a lack of faith rather it is doing what scription tells us to do - test everything in the light of scripture. Paladin
I notice on the post for 26/6 Steve has mentioned an email address of revolution@mmccxx.net as the place to send comments (perhaps he has been made ware of the existence of this site). So as a matter of interest I have sent the following to him to see what sort of response I get -
"Hi Steve.
Your blog frequently mentions stories of miraculous events, such as healings and people being raised from the dead. Could you please provide some independently verified evidence of these events on your blog? Several of your fellow bloggers (who are also cadets at your training college) frequently post claims of the miraculous, yet when challenged to provide proof they either cannot or refuse to do so. Thanks".
"I have not been involved with someone who was dead and came back to life. However, I believe that God raises the dead. You will possibly be acquainted with Biblical accounts of this very thing. The Bible provides some independently verified evidence.
Jesus Christ is the best known example.
I did a quick search in response to your email and found this site that you have possibly also seen: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bonnke2.html Ironically, it seems to provide some independently verified evidence.
I hope that helps."
To that I have responded -
Thankyou for your prompt reply. The biblical accounts cannot be considered as "independently verified evidence". To be more specific, I am looking for recent examples where medical practitioners have certified someone as dead, then confirming that they had come back to life without it being due to obvious medical intervention. With regards to the Bonnke story that you have linked to, as it states this would seem highly likely to be a forgery.
I am concerned that you and many of your cadets regularly blog stories of the miraculous without ever checking to see if there is any truth to them. In this day and age it should be very easy to obtain clear evidence if something truly miraculous has occurred. Without any evidence, the stories lack any credibility and to my mind undermine any confidence we can have in present and future leaders in the Salvation Army.
Most of what is posted on Armybarmy lacks a coherent understanding of scripture because it is into doing theology by sound-bytes, little snippets of texts, and unverifiable stories, from here and there strung together because they share some common vocabulary word. As we know, a text (whether is be Scripture or TSA writings) without context is just a pre-text for whatever you want it to mean. What Armybarmy does is to mine the theological spectrum for ideas and concepts and then thrust, or should that be squeeze, them into where they do not comfortably fit. We see this not only in the demon theology but also in the primitive Salvationism that is being espoused which fails to understand Catherine Booth and the context in which she wrote, let along understand what she actually said in her Aggressive Christianity. As a consequence the theology espoused is both dangerous and unhelpful to the well-being of the Army. WJE
Interesting that you were pointed to that website - it looks to me that he failed to see what the site was saying. This supposed raising of the dead pastor has been shown, form more than one source, to be fraudulent. Yet Bonnke still likes to lay claim to having raise the dead. John
June 25: Tragically ironic that on the same day we are encouraged to kick some demons, there is the awful story of a teenager in French Guiana who was killed in an attempted exorcism. See http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=830145 for more details.
In a related Internet search I also came across this interesting critique of new directions in Salvation Army theology: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/12/26/134754/19
Thanks JDK for the reference. The War College has on its faculty a Patrica King of Extrem Prophet, has some rather strnage teachings and a club that into trance dancing. Also on the Board of reference is Wesley and Stacy Campbell who are into the NAR and a few other things. Wesley has had problems with the Canandian Securities Commission over a pyramid scheme. One wonders what the Canandian territory thinks about all this and why it hasn't been cleaned up. GB
Covenant and Holiness are the keeper of the Army. I wonder what this means. Which covenant might that be? But more particularly what brand of holiness? From what I've read in his other writings, we have two natures, a human nature and a sin nature. Holiness/entire sanctification means the eradication of the sin nature. I've heard him say he has been entirely sanctified...mmm.Johno
What we have in regards to “kicking demons” is an approach to Christology in which Jesus is either the Rambo Jesus or the Judge Dread Jesus. Jesus is blowing away the devil and his cohorts all over the place and all we have to do is use his name to tear down anything that gets in our way. This commando Christology sees the devil under every bush and in every situation. Such approaches tend to fall into the category of being a Christological heresy. Some of these approaches are more dangerous distortions than other, but all have a negative impact on the spiritual well-being of believers. When it comes to having a demon (oppressed not possessed) comes about because of a faulty understanding and even misuse of NT terminology. The NT makes it quite clear that a Christian cannot be possessed, owned or controlled by a demon. Also we are a new creation in Christ, the old is passed away (2 Cor.5:17. Eph.4:22-24. Col.3:9-10) Our struggle is with the sin nature(Gal.5:16-) not an indwelling demon. Again we are seem very poor theology at work. GB
Hi anonymous, the issue is not whether those who contribute don't believe in the supernatural. You see we do - the issue is about the how some speak about it and whether it is good Christian theology as Gb points out. Not much use believing in the supernatural and have got your theology about Christ wrong. Johno
There are those who claim they and we should be living in the supernatural; seeing the Lord, being visited by angels, kicking out demons, plus numerous other experiences. This is a big claim. It comes back to how you classify the ‘supernatural’ and from which theological stream you are drinking from. If such things are a “normal” aspect of Christian life, then most of us are falling sort. Problem is such so-called experiences are not typical in the lives of those in Scripture who experienced them, nor where they sort after by then, in fact they were amazed when they happened. Furthermore, not all supposed supernatural experiences are from God, something that is forgotten by those who push such experiences as normal. Hence the need for discernment, the testing of the spirits, and the living of those who claim such experiences. The word ‘supernatural’ has a longer history it’s not that we don’t believe in the supernatural or dismiss it as a frame of reference, its we don’t believe in a form of supernaturalism that has assumed a worldview in which heaven and earth are normally utterly separated have looked for evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence and work. Fixation on such ‘supernatural’ experiences tends not to build a healthy Christian spirituality nor sound teaching that produces godly lives. It doesn’t see the Holy Spirit at work in a quiet growth of moral wisdom, a steady, undramatic lifetime of selfless service, but in spectacular, 'supernatural' events such as healings, speaking in tongues, wonderful conversions and pushes a superstitious belief that God will magically "fix" everything. Palidin
Thank to the Paladin and may we take this a bit further in answer to anon who seems to think we don’t believe in the supernatural. One of the dangers in the current climate of pan-spirituality is the confusing of the ‘supernatural’ with the ‘paranormal’ and of a resorting to gimmicks or even divination in its modern form to heighten the spiritual tenor of the individual or a congregation. There is a difference between the ‘supernatural’ and what is properly called ‘spiritual’ and the ‘paranormal’. Far too much of the current fascination with demons etc tends to fall into the realm of divination and magic for one’s own purposes, and for insider knowledge or power of a supernatural sort that will trigger some specific experience. In a genuine Christian spiritual experiences those experiences are not brought about by human technique but by the Holy Spirit as he chooses. The problem is indeed one that has been brought into the Army by Armybarmy under the guise of a misreading and misunderstanding of Army history on the one hand and an embracing of a theology that is foreign to Army doctrine. Johno
Sundays blo - again anadotal stories with now way to check when and where these things happened. Oh boy when is this guy going show some integrity and transparency concerning what he publishes.
As you say when...? Interestingly he is always on about "holiness now", but seems not to see the connection between holiness and integrity on the blog. GB
Just who is this great salvo woman who occassionally had to kick a demon out of her life? It would be interesting to know and maybe we can get her to join this conversation. What is this throne od dodgy doctrine he is talking about? Certainly shows a strange approach to the subject - then again, are we surprised? Paladin
ReplyDelete25/6 The throne of dodgy doctrine? Hmm, could that have anything to do with making distinctions between 'oppression' and 'possession'? Where do I find that explained in the Bible? Seriously, does anyone read this 'kick out demons' stuff and not think it's crazy? I take that back, because unfortunately I know people do and that's what really worries me. Any organisation is likely to have these elements on its fringe, but this is the head of our Training College!
ReplyDeleteA real issue is the anadotal stories of alleged miracles, demon kicking etc.As we know the more a story is repeated the more likely the facts have been altered. To ascribe an experience to a demon(s) cannot be easily determined. In some cases the source of an experience is overcharged emotion. In some cases it may be demonic interference. However, a safe rule is that demonic agency should never be hastily jumped to, especially when human agency can adequately explain what has happened. The problem with Armybarmy is the repeating of unverified and unverifiable accounts/stories. When analyzing what is being said on Armybarmy we need to ask: can he prove his claims by sufficient evidence? Is he capable of discerning the truthfulness of the event being spoken about? Is the event spoken of possible? Is he trustworthy? By asking such questions is not evidence of a lack of faith rather it is doing what scription tells us to do - test everything in the light of scripture. Paladin
ReplyDeleteI notice on the post for 26/6 Steve has mentioned an email address of revolution@mmccxx.net as the place to send comments (perhaps he has been made ware of the existence of this site). So as a matter of interest I have sent the following to him to see what sort of response I get -
ReplyDelete"Hi Steve.
Your blog frequently mentions stories of miraculous events, such as healings and people being raised from the dead. Could you please provide some independently verified evidence of these events on your blog? Several of your fellow bloggers (who are also cadets at your training college) frequently post claims of the miraculous, yet when challenged to provide proof they either cannot or refuse to do so. Thanks".
I will let you know of the response to this.
Jack - looking forward to his reply - don't hold your breath too long. Paladin's questions are valid and helpful. Johno
ReplyDeleteHere is the reply from Steve -
ReplyDelete"I have not been involved with someone who was dead and came back to life. However, I believe that God raises the dead. You will possibly be acquainted with Biblical accounts of this very thing. The Bible provides some independently verified evidence.
Jesus Christ is the best known example.
I did a quick search in response to your email and found this site that you have possibly also seen:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bonnke2.html
Ironically, it seems to provide some independently verified evidence.
I hope that helps."
To that I have responded -
Thankyou for your prompt reply. The biblical accounts cannot be considered as "independently verified evidence". To be more specific, I am looking for recent examples where medical practitioners have certified someone as dead, then confirming that they had come back to life without it being due to obvious medical intervention. With regards to the Bonnke story that you have linked to, as it states this would seem highly likely to be a forgery.
I am concerned that you and many of your cadets regularly blog stories of the miraculous without ever checking to see if there is any truth to them. In this day and age it should be very easy to obtain clear evidence if something truly miraculous has occurred. Without any evidence, the stories lack any credibility and to my mind undermine any confidence we can have in present and future leaders in the Salvation Army.
Most of what is posted on Armybarmy lacks a coherent understanding of scripture because it is into doing theology by sound-bytes, little snippets of texts, and unverifiable stories, from here and there strung together because they share some common vocabulary word. As we know, a text (whether is be Scripture or TSA writings) without context is just a pre-text for whatever you want it to mean. What Armybarmy does is to mine the theological spectrum for ideas and concepts and then thrust, or should that be squeeze, them into where they do not comfortably fit. We see this not only in the demon theology but also in the primitive Salvationism that is being espoused which fails to understand Catherine Booth and the context in which she wrote, let along understand what she actually said in her Aggressive Christianity. As a consequence the theology espoused is both dangerous and unhelpful to the well-being of the Army. WJE
ReplyDeleteInteresting that you were pointed to that website - it looks to me that he failed to see what the site was saying. This supposed raising of the dead pastor has been shown, form more than one source, to be fraudulent. Yet Bonnke still likes to lay claim to having raise the dead. John
ReplyDeleteJune 25: Tragically ironic that on the same day we are encouraged to kick some demons, there is the awful story of a teenager in French Guiana who was killed in an attempted exorcism. See http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=830145 for more details.
ReplyDeleteIn a related Internet search I also came across this interesting critique of new directions in Salvation Army theology: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/12/26/134754/19
Thanks JDK for the reference. The War College has on its faculty a Patrica King of Extrem Prophet, has some rather strnage teachings and a club that into trance dancing. Also on the Board of reference is Wesley and Stacy Campbell who are into the NAR and a few other things. Wesley has had problems with the Canandian Securities Commission over a pyramid scheme. One wonders what the Canandian territory thinks about all this and why it hasn't been cleaned up. GB
ReplyDeleteCovenant and Holiness are the keeper of the Army. I wonder what this means. Which covenant might that be? But more particularly what brand of holiness? From what I've read in his other writings, we have two natures, a human nature and a sin nature. Holiness/entire sanctification means the eradication of the sin nature. I've heard him say he has been entirely sanctified...mmm.Johno
ReplyDeleteABC Four Corners had a rather horrific program about Nigeria and the Apostles/Prophets killimng children because they were said to be witches.
ReplyDeleteWhat we have in regards to “kicking demons” is an approach to Christology in which Jesus is either the Rambo Jesus or the Judge Dread Jesus. Jesus is blowing away the devil and his cohorts all over the place and all we have to do is use his name to tear down anything that gets in our way. This commando Christology sees the devil under every bush and in every situation. Such approaches tend to fall into the category of being a Christological heresy. Some of these approaches are more dangerous distortions than other, but all have a negative impact on the spiritual well-being of believers. When it comes to having a demon (oppressed not possessed) comes about because of a faulty understanding and even misuse of NT terminology. The NT makes it quite clear that a Christian cannot be possessed, owned or controlled by a demon. Also we are a new creation in Christ, the old is passed away (2 Cor.5:17. Eph.4:22-24. Col.3:9-10) Our struggle is with the sin nature(Gal.5:16-) not an indwelling demon. Again we are seem very poor theology at work. GB
ReplyDeletehow about you guys get a new site called wedontbelieveinthesupernatural.blogspot.com
ReplyDeleteHi anonymous, the issue is not whether those who contribute don't believe in the supernatural. You see we do - the issue is about the how some speak about it and whether it is good Christian theology as Gb points out. Not much use believing in the supernatural and have got your theology about Christ wrong. Johno
ReplyDeleteThere are those who claim they and we should be living in the supernatural; seeing the Lord, being visited by angels, kicking out demons, plus numerous other experiences. This is a big claim. It comes back to how you classify the ‘supernatural’ and from which theological stream you are drinking from. If such things are a “normal” aspect of Christian life, then most of us are falling sort. Problem is such so-called experiences are not typical in the lives of those in Scripture who experienced them, nor where they sort after by then, in fact they were amazed when they happened. Furthermore, not all supposed supernatural experiences are from God, something that is forgotten by those who push such experiences as normal. Hence the need for discernment, the testing of the spirits, and the living of those who claim such experiences. The word ‘supernatural’ has a longer history it’s not that we don’t believe in the supernatural or dismiss it as a frame of reference, its we don’t believe in a form of supernaturalism that has assumed a worldview in which heaven and earth are normally utterly separated have looked for evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence and work. Fixation on such ‘supernatural’ experiences tends not to build a healthy Christian spirituality nor sound teaching that produces godly lives. It doesn’t see the Holy Spirit at work in a quiet growth of moral wisdom, a steady, undramatic lifetime of selfless service, but in spectacular, 'supernatural' events such as healings, speaking in tongues, wonderful conversions and pushes a superstitious belief that God will magically "fix" everything. Palidin
ReplyDeleteThank to the Paladin and may we take this a bit further in answer to anon who seems to think we don’t believe in the supernatural. One of the dangers in the current climate of pan-spirituality is the confusing of the ‘supernatural’ with the ‘paranormal’ and of a resorting to gimmicks or even divination in its modern form to heighten the spiritual tenor of the individual or a congregation. There is a difference between the ‘supernatural’ and what is properly called ‘spiritual’ and the ‘paranormal’. Far too much of the current fascination with demons etc tends to fall into the realm of divination and magic for one’s own purposes, and for insider knowledge or power of a supernatural sort that will trigger some specific experience. In a genuine Christian spiritual experiences those experiences are not brought about by human technique but by the Holy Spirit as he chooses. The problem is indeed one that has been brought into the Army by Armybarmy under the guise of a misreading and misunderstanding of Army history on the one hand and an embracing of a theology that is foreign to Army doctrine. Johno
ReplyDeleteSundays blo - again anadotal stories with now way to check when and where these things happened. Oh boy when is this guy going show some integrity and transparency concerning what he publishes.
ReplyDeleteAs you say when...? Interestingly he is always on about "holiness now", but seems not to see the connection between holiness and integrity on the blog. GB
ReplyDelete