Right of Reply?
I know a number of people have been fascinated by the content of the Armybarmy blog and would periodically like to enter into public dialogue about it. Here's your opportunity to do so...
Thursday, May 28, 2009
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If commenting on a particular entry, it would be helpful if you could list the blog entry date before your comment...
30th May,2009 'how do we teach the gospel as a justice principled, life-change rather than simply a personal relationship with God?' - this is a great question! They may even be the same thing but a personal relationship with an unseen being is often too difficult to grasp. Would like to hear more on this subject.
31/5 I have a slight problem here that has nothing to do with bad spelling. "God is with you (assuming you are a believer and all 'fessed up)." Where is God if you are not a believer or "fessed up"? Do you seriously think that God only works through believers? Get real.
June 1st: Why does the honour junior soldier system sound more like indoctrination than honour? The rest of our education systems are trying to move past the 'stuff and regurgitate' method of learning. Perhaps it's time for us to encourage children of all ages to think for themselves, to challenge and to ask questions?
June 3: On suggesting that a bunch of people leave The Salvation Army - why stop there? Shouldn't we also take the opportunity to get rid of the Pentecostals, the liberals, the band-saved, the sinners and the auditors?
31st May 2009 - the use of "baby rape is contemptible" as a comparison to "merely to recommend revolution is comtemptible" was such a ridiculous thing to say, even by Steven's standards. I'm glad you've put this site up, although I suspect you'll be pressured to remove it very soon. I've been often frustrated by his unwillingness to allow comment on his blog, particularly because of the appalling things that he frequently writes. Unfortunately his influence is strong, and I fear for the future of the Army is the Southern Territory as his fundamentalist drones leave college and are unleashed on the public.
I think the Gowans quote is this one (referring to certain corps): "They started taking care of the corps instead of taking care of the lost and the Lord took their candlestick from its place. The glory has departed."
5/6 There is another possibility that doesn't seem to be entertained by the 'Christian Trilemma' - that Jesus never claimed to be God. Many reputable historical and biblical scholars doubt that Jesus ever claimed to be divine. The claims we see in the gospels are written through the lens of faith by those who followed Jesus some 40-70 years later.
Interesting site! Comment organisation could become a challenge but keep the dialogue coming. I won't comment further at this point, but will keep an eye on the site for updates.
June 7: This spiritual realm stuff is mind-boggling. Is it the product of mental illness or is it drug induced? Angels and Demons are works of fantasy not reality, even Dan Brown understands this! I know people think that such disbelief is the Devil's best tool, but I think it's more like the Emperor's new clothes. Imagine it if you want, but don't be surprised if people think that you're crazy.
7/6 I have to confess that this worries me deeply. I don't know anyone who has had a credible encounter with a demon, but I do know some people with mental illness who have been victimised by churches that tried to exorcise them and eventually just cast the people out of the church. This area is so open to abuse and misunderstanding that it seems to me to be a ticking timebomb. Ignoring it just relegates it to the lunatic fringe. Perhaps we should consider a specialist approach like the Catholic church that takes it seriously enough to outlaw renegade exorcists and can apply the insights of psychology as well?
7/6 Demons, possession, etc... On come on! He loves finding a devil under every bush... otherwise why does he write this crap? Having had to deal with numerous peole who were abuse by other church (including a 4 hour deliverance meeting where a lady suffering clinical depression was physically pushed around whilst being 'delivered' - took a long, long time for proper healing to occur with psychiatrist/counselling, etc, plus much love and support from the Salvos, I am very, very wary of this incorrect theology. God help all the young Salvos who absorb this stuff without another view being presented.
7th June I have tried reading the rubbish on Abarmy a few times and I don't know if it only me - but is the writer on drugs or mentally ill? It doesn't make sense. It is written like they have just taken their daily pills and have to get as much crap out of their mind before they kick in! It is of concern that this person is in charge of moulding future SA Officers. Unfortunately the people under this person's influence have to deal with real issues and real people when they leave the college - will they be able to cope when all they are fed is dribble? And what about the people who come to them for help - is anyone concerned about them?
Read some of the blogs that he links to - in particular the Oceania ones for Thompson, Mapleback and Kean. These three guys are all in the training college under Steve's leadership and are extreme fundamentalists who lap up his teaching. Unfortunately with Steve being Jim Knagg's 'boy', it seems there is little chance of his being removed and being replaced with a real training principal.
NOTE TO ALL COMMENTATORS: If at all possible, please try to restrict comments to the content rather than defaming individuals. We all understand the connections, so there's no need to make them explicit.
Re: FORMAT - In order to simplify reading and writing here, I'll start a new comments section each week.
Can I suggest that commenters make up a user name, as it would be helpful to know which 'anonymous' is which. As to the last anon with his/her "wa, wa, waa", thanks for such an insightful comment. Perhaps naming names wasn't such a good idea on my part and I will endeavour to just comment on the content of the Armybarmy blog rather than the people involved. The thing is I actually do care about the future of the Salvation Army in Australia, and will oppose the rise in fundamentalism wherever I can. Where do you stand on things "wa wa waa"?
wa, wa, waa here. Where do I stand? I think that belief is harder than doubt. I think criticism is easy. I think that labels lead to hatred and that your work should speak for itself. I think that very few are affected by that which you believe to be central and that intelectuals wish to monopolise faith. I also think that anonymity and ambiguity are essential to self preservation in this shooting gallery.
You are simply hilarious - not. You speak of no labels and then hose down intellectuals... one way or the other, buddy! Jack makes some valid points...
I'm glad to hear we're buddies. Although your tone suggests otherwise. You're absolutely right regarding my statement towards intellectuals. I take it back. Consider me repentant towards my prior practice of labeling. I invite others to do so.
I agree that anonymity can be important in a place like this, but I would ask again that you all come up with a user name so that we can work out which anonymous is which. Particularly as the number of comments and threads increase it will become even more difficult to work out who we are agreeing and arguing with. Just pick a name, any name (but Jack is already taken).
Jack, Fear not: There is a good staff on the college who are sound in their theology and approach to ministry. Also, not all the cadets are drone of Stephen - as a result of good teaching and modeling by other staffers most come to see through him and his theology.
Perhaps you are right about the other college staff - I see that one may even have commented on the other thread. Mabe it's just that the fundamentalists are the loudest and therefore seem like the majority.
I agree that there are many good SA College staff and cadets who are probably not in total agreement with the current swing to the right, but I'm concerned about the innocent people who will come into contact with the "drones" once they are let loose to run a SA corps or be involved in social programs.
I've met the so-called drones and they are nothing of the sort! You're talking about real people here. If I was to make a judgement on the personalities as represented here I wouldn't think many commentators nice or reasonable people. Stupid, stupid conclusions.
True they may not be drones - however, the theology they hold to and proclaim tends to at the extreme end of pentecostalism. Such theology is not mainstream Christian nor is mainstream Salvo. Therein lies the problem. Not only have they been lead astray but they will wind up leading others astray as well and cause a great deal of pain along the way. GB
GB first of all, generalisation is just as problematic as naming names because now we have an unholy "they," when actually you are referring to a few individuals. secondly, the individuals concerned generally have not been brainwashed but passionately held their views prior to commencement of training. lastly i believe the theology that is under question is wesleyan rather than pentecostal.
if there is such a thing as main stream salvo i'd love to know what it is.
lead astray from what and to where?
what exactly will be the source of pain "along the way"?
Have you noticed how Armybarmy talks about things like Hogan raised 200 from the dead or how he heard how x number we saved etc but there is not real evidence put forward or referrencing that enables others to check up. I understand Hgan is very good at this sort of thing, all talk but no real evidence. One can grant the Armybarmy has passion/zeal as do others mentioned but their support of people who are known to be odd in their ethics and doctrine makes one wonder about them. Theology is worked out in ones ethics, in fact that is how you know what their real belifs are. And by the way -the theology put forward is not Wesleyan it is either Word-Faith, which is a brand of Christian Science or Latter Rain which is also false doctrine. Johno
Whose theology Hogan or Armybarmy. Following the Armybarmy blog would suggest that the writter's theology is the same as that of Hogan anf Joyner. Reading his other material elsewhere suggests the same thing.By not being wesleyan I guess Johno is saying the wesleyan holiness was not fixated on demons and anedotal stories about supposed healing, deliverance etc.
30th May,2009 'how do we teach the gospel as a justice principled, life-change rather than simply a personal relationship with God?' - this is a great question! They may even be the same thing but a personal relationship with an unseen being is often too difficult to grasp. Would like to hear more on this subject.
ReplyDelete31/5 I have a slight problem here that has nothing to do with bad spelling. "God is with you (assuming you are a believer and all 'fessed up)." Where is God if you are not a believer or "fessed up"? Do you seriously think that God only works through believers? Get real.
ReplyDeleteJune 1st: Why does the honour junior soldier system sound more like indoctrination than honour? The rest of our education systems are trying to move past the 'stuff and regurgitate' method of learning. Perhaps it's time for us to encourage children of all ages to think for themselves, to challenge and to ask questions?
ReplyDelete1st June,2009 There is such a thing as age appropriate learning RR! Most children I know don't need to be encouraged to ask questions.
ReplyDeleteMP - perhaps God is with you whether you're a believer or not, you just don't know it if you're not a believer?
June 3: On suggesting that a bunch of people leave The Salvation Army - why stop there? Shouldn't we also take the opportunity to get rid of the Pentecostals, the liberals, the band-saved, the sinners and the auditors?
ReplyDelete31st May 2009 - the use of "baby rape is contemptible" as a comparison to "merely to recommend revolution is comtemptible" was such a ridiculous thing to say, even by Steven's standards. I'm glad you've put this site up, although I suspect you'll be pressured to remove it very soon. I've been often frustrated by his unwillingness to allow comment on his blog, particularly because of the appalling things that he frequently writes. Unfortunately his influence is strong, and I fear for the future of the Army is the Southern Territory as his fundamentalist drones leave college and are unleashed on the public.
ReplyDeleteSat, June 6th...
ReplyDeletere Andrew Clark's blog...
Where is the gutsy quote by Gen John Gowans that is referred to in this blurb?
I think the Gowans quote is this one (referring to certain corps): "They started taking care of the corps instead of taking care of the lost and the Lord took their candlestick from its place. The glory has departed."
ReplyDelete5/6 There is another possibility that doesn't seem to be entertained by the 'Christian Trilemma' - that Jesus never claimed to be God. Many reputable historical and biblical scholars doubt that Jesus ever claimed to be divine. The claims we see in the gospels are written through the lens of faith by those who followed Jesus some 40-70 years later.
ReplyDeleteInteresting site! Comment organisation could become a challenge but keep the dialogue coming. I won't comment further at this point, but will keep an eye on the site for updates.
ReplyDeleteRegards, JDK
June 7: This spiritual realm stuff is mind-boggling. Is it the product of mental illness or is it drug induced? Angels and Demons are works of fantasy not reality, even Dan Brown understands this! I know people think that such disbelief is the Devil's best tool, but I think it's more like the Emperor's new clothes. Imagine it if you want, but don't be surprised if people think that you're crazy.
ReplyDelete7/6 I have to confess that this worries me deeply. I don't know anyone who has had a credible encounter with a demon, but I do know some people with mental illness who have been victimised by churches that tried to exorcise them and eventually just cast the people out of the church. This area is so open to abuse and misunderstanding that it seems to me to be a ticking timebomb. Ignoring it just relegates it to the lunatic fringe. Perhaps we should consider a specialist approach like the Catholic church that takes it seriously enough to outlaw renegade exorcists and can apply the insights of psychology as well?
ReplyDelete7/6 Demons, possession, etc...
ReplyDeleteOn come on! He loves finding a devil under every bush... otherwise why does he write this crap? Having had to deal with numerous peole who were abuse by other church (including a 4 hour deliverance meeting where a lady suffering clinical depression was physically pushed around whilst being 'delivered' - took a long, long time for proper healing to occur with psychiatrist/counselling, etc, plus much love and support from the Salvos, I am very, very wary of this incorrect theology. God help all the young Salvos who absorb this stuff without another view being presented.
7th June I have tried reading the rubbish on Abarmy a few times and I don't know if it only me - but is the writer on drugs or mentally ill? It doesn't make sense. It is written like they have just taken their daily pills and have to get as much crap out of their mind before they kick in! It is of concern that this person is in charge of moulding future SA Officers. Unfortunately the people under this person's influence have to deal with real issues and real people when they leave the college - will they be able to cope when all they are fed is dribble? And what about the people who come to them for help - is anyone concerned about them?
ReplyDeleteRead some of the blogs that he links to - in particular the Oceania ones for Thompson, Mapleback and Kean. These three guys are all in the training college under Steve's leadership and are extreme fundamentalists who lap up his teaching. Unfortunately with Steve being Jim Knagg's 'boy', it seems there is little chance of his being removed and being replaced with a real training principal.
ReplyDeleteNOTE TO ALL COMMENTATORS: If at all possible, please try to restrict comments to the content rather than defaming individuals. We all understand the connections, so there's no need to make them explicit.
ReplyDeleteRe: FORMAT - In order to simplify reading and writing here, I'll start a new comments section each week.
Thanks for your input.
Jack - wa, wa, waa!
ReplyDeleteCan I suggest that commenters make up a user name, as it would be helpful to know which 'anonymous' is which. As to the last anon with his/her "wa, wa, waa", thanks for such an insightful comment. Perhaps naming names wasn't such a good idea on my part and I will endeavour to just comment on the content of the Armybarmy blog rather than the people involved. The thing is I actually do care about the future of the Salvation Army in Australia, and will oppose the rise in fundamentalism wherever I can. Where do you stand on things "wa wa waa"?
ReplyDeletewa, wa, waa here.
ReplyDeleteWhere do I stand? I think that belief is harder than doubt. I think criticism is easy. I think that labels lead to hatred and that your work should speak for itself. I think that very few are affected by that which you believe to be central and that intelectuals wish to monopolise faith. I also think that anonymity and ambiguity are essential to self preservation in this shooting gallery.
to: wa, wa, waa...
ReplyDeleteYou are simply hilarious - not. You speak of no labels and then hose down intellectuals... one way or the other, buddy! Jack makes some valid points...
I'm glad to hear we're buddies. Although your tone suggests otherwise. You're absolutely right regarding my statement towards intellectuals. I take it back. Consider me repentant towards my prior practice of labeling. I invite others to do so.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel a lot of love around here.
ReplyDeleteI agree that anonymity can be important in a place like this, but I would ask again that you all come up with a user name so that we can work out which anonymous is which. Particularly as the number of comments and threads increase it will become even more difficult to work out who we are agreeing and arguing with. Just pick a name, any name (but Jack is already taken).
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeleteFear not: There is a good staff on the college who are sound in their theology and approach to ministry. Also, not all the cadets are drone of Stephen - as a result of good teaching and modeling by other staffers most come to see through him and his theology.
Perhaps you are right about the other college staff - I see that one may even have commented on the other thread. Mabe it's just that the fundamentalists are the loudest and therefore seem like the majority.
ReplyDeleteI agree that there are many good SA College staff and cadets who are probably not in total agreement with the current swing to the right, but I'm concerned about the innocent people who will come into contact with the "drones" once they are let loose to run a SA corps or be involved in social programs.
ReplyDeleteI've met the so-called drones and they are nothing of the sort! You're talking about real people here. If I was to make a judgement on the personalities as represented here I wouldn't think many commentators nice or reasonable people. Stupid, stupid conclusions.
ReplyDeleteTrue they may not be drones - however, the theology they hold to and proclaim tends to at the extreme end of pentecostalism. Such theology is not mainstream Christian nor is mainstream Salvo. Therein lies the problem. Not only have they been lead astray but they will wind up leading others astray as well and cause a great deal of pain along the way. GB
ReplyDeleteGB
ReplyDeletefirst of all, generalisation is just as problematic as naming names because now we have an unholy "they," when actually you are referring to a few individuals. secondly, the individuals concerned generally have not been brainwashed but passionately held their views prior to commencement of training. lastly i believe the theology that is under question is wesleyan rather than pentecostal.
if there is such a thing as main stream salvo i'd love to know what it is.
lead astray from what and to where?
what exactly will be the source of pain "along the way"?
Have you noticed how Armybarmy talks about things like Hogan raised 200 from the dead or how he heard how x number we saved etc but there is not real evidence put forward or referrencing that enables others to check up. I understand Hgan is very good at this sort of thing, all talk but no real evidence. One can grant the Armybarmy has passion/zeal as do others mentioned but their support of people who are known to be odd in their ethics and doctrine makes one wonder about them. Theology is worked out in ones ethics, in fact that is how you know what their real belifs are. And by the way -the theology put forward is not Wesleyan it is either Word-Faith, which is a brand of Christian Science or Latter Rain which is also false doctrine. Johno
ReplyDeleteJohno - The theology is not wesleyan? Can you explain? my interest is piqued!
ReplyDeleteI guess we should determine who's theology we are talking about. Hogan or ABarmy?
Whose theology Hogan or Armybarmy. Following the Armybarmy blog would suggest that the writter's theology is the same as that of Hogan anf Joyner. Reading his other material elsewhere suggests the same thing.By not being wesleyan I guess Johno is saying the wesleyan holiness was not fixated on demons and anedotal stories about supposed healing, deliverance etc.
ReplyDelete